In this episode, host Diana Krach engages in a compelling conversation with Lucas Gould, the CEO of Spendr. Lucas shares his vision of transforming the traditional cash-only policies that often plague the cannabis industry, drawing parallels to the ease of buying a cup of coffee. Throughout the episode, Diana and Lucas explore the numerous challenges and solutions surrounding payment accessibility in the cannabis market. Lucas elaborates on how Spender's technology not only simplifies consumer transactions but also enhances the overall dispensary experience by improving gratuities for budtenders and streamlining business operations.
In this episode, host Diana Krach engages in a compelling conversation with Lucas Gould, the CEO of Spendr. Lucas shares his vision of transforming the traditional cash-only policies that often plague the cannabis industry, drawing parallels to the ease of buying a cup of coffee.
Throughout the episode, Diana and Lucas explore the numerous challenges and solutions surrounding payment accessibility in the cannabis market. Lucas elaborates on how Spender's technology not only simplifies consumer transactions but also enhances the overall dispensary experience by improving gratuities for budtenders and streamlining business operations.
The discussion extends to Spendr's dedication to democratizing financial technology, ensuring accessibility for all users regardless of age or tech-savviness. With innovative features like an interactive rewards system and strategic partnerships with local banks, Spendr is poised to break down financial barriers in the cannabis industry.
Listeners will gain insights into Spendr's ambitious plans to expand into new markets and the company's commitment to making financial access as universal as it is rewarding. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of cannabis commerce and financial technology, providing a glimpse into the future of seamless, accessible transactions in the cannabis industry.
00:16 - Diana (Host)
Welcome to your Highness Podcast. I'm your host, Diana Krash, and today I am joined by Lucas Gould, CEO of Spender. How are you doing today, Lucas?
00:27 - Lucas (Guest)
I'm doing well, Diana. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk.
00:31 - Diana (Host)
I'm excited to listen. Good, before we start, I should just quickly note that Spender is currently a sponsor of your Highness podcast and we really appreciate that. We appreciate the support, but that's not why we're doing this episode. We're doing this episode because in your Highness podcast, in the history of the show that's a weird way to say it, but we really focus on accessibility in all aspects, in every type of component of this industry, for lack of a better way of saying it. But one part that we really haven't focused on is payment accessibility, payment processing accessibility. We've had one episode about it with Olga Hall, the cannabis nurse, and we actually spoke about an incident where she wasn't able to access an ATM inside the dispensary and things went awry. So we have touched on it in the past, but it is something that is a very big pressure point for people in the industry, and so let's begin with why Spender came into existence, lucas.
01:44 - Lucas (Guest)
So let's begin with why Spender came into existence, lucas? Yeah, well, I, you know, I always think if I have a, if it's a good story. But I guess it's the real story which is I. Just I've been a longtime cannabis consumer. I'm a medical marijuana patient myself in the state of Ohio, just have visited a lot of dispensaries across many states and you know, really the number one problem that I faced was how do you pay for it? Right, it was going to the ATM to take cash out and paying, you know, high fees. It was having to go find my bank, you know when I'm traveling in a new state, and it was just the headache of carrying cash and worrying about that.
02:19 - Diana (Host)
I hate finding you on ATMs not to cut you off, but that's like such a pain in the butt for me Like I cannot.
02:26 - Lucas (Guest)
Well, it is, and I think like what other industry do you have to do that in right Other than cannabis? And we're all buying something that is legal in that state, yet it's still treated like a back alley transaction. And so our whole belief was like how do you make buying cannabis as normal as buying a cup of coffee in legal markets and legal dispensaries? It cup of coffee and legal markets and legal dispensaries it should be, because it's as legal right. And so our whole thing was building something that would improve that consumer's experience. And by improving that consumer's experience, those consumers will then be more loyal and will shop more at the places that do accept it, which will then, in turn, also help the businesses. And so we believe we've created like a win-win where both sides are getting the benefit of this. But we really created Spender to help the consumer and make buying cannabis just like a more normalized experience than what it is today.
03:10 - Diana (Host)
That's awesome and it really is a pain in the ass.
03:15 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, well, it really is. When I went to Maine recently.
03:18 - Diana (Host)
Sorry, I keep talking over you, I didn't mean to do that, but I you know, luckily, the ones I go to locally here they have the option of using your credit card or your debit card. But when I went to Maine recently I went into a dispensary and they didn't have an ATM. They didn't have that ability. Luckily I had cash, but I usually don't. So yeah it it really is it's? Something you don't really think about until you have to think about it.
03:51 - Lucas (Guest)
Well, and I think the challenge is especially in, like, newer markets, and ohio is a great example where we just went uh, adult use sales uh, over the last couple weeks they just started doing adult use sales in ohio and the number of like first-time customers that never been in dispensary who show up and they're so excited and they pull out their card and they're like, oh wait, we don't take card and they're like what do you mean it's like, well, it's cash, only it's so foreign to them that I think it really does just hurt the experience from the onset.
04:17
It's like these people maybe have never even experienced cannabis before and now their first experience with it is being told that they can't use their credit card and having to go to an ATM and carry all this cash and it's just overall bad. And the one thing I'd say on like the debit and credit card, you know, acceptance is you know, most of the time they're charging a consumer a fee. Right, they're passing on a three or $4 fee. They may be rounding up your purchase. It's just so, just not the way it's done in any other industry but cannabis. So it's so unique and I think it's just such a big problem. Still, we're hoping to hopefully help make a little bit of an impact to it.
04:54 - Diana (Host)
Well, I think you are, and I would like to add a little bit more to that because my thought goes to the bud tenders, because a lot of the shops have some type of gratuity system and I know from being formally in an industry that relies on tips. If someone is irritated with the experience or if they are not properly prepared to pay for it with enough cash, that tip's going to suffer, or you might not get one at all.
05:26 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, totally agree, and we see that, and I think in a lot of markets, the bud tenders really rely on tips, unfortunately. Right, and I think you have to create an environment where one people can easily tip, but again also giving people just a better experience so that they want to tip in the first place. Right, and I think it's just how you use technology, the things that you offer, and I think bud tenders also want an easier experience themselves, right, like they also don't want to deal with cash.
05:53 - Diana (Host)
I don't, I don't think I'm sure they don't want to deal with the attitude either no, they don't right.
05:57 - Lucas (Guest)
And the number of times people get pissed off when they're told that they can't, you know, use their, use their card and they storm out or they, you know, they cuss out the bud tender. I mean, it's just not, just not great for anybody.
06:07 - Diana (Host)
No, no, it's not. So we're going to get a little bit deeper with this. What challenges do you see in making payment processing more accessible to small businesses, especially those owned with or by individuals with limited technical resources?
06:24 - Lucas (Guest)
owned with or by individuals with limited technical resources. Yeah, you know, I think I say at times that, like you know, spenders, a technology company like we, should be the ones really building and providing that tech and letting the retailers or the small businesses do what they do best, right, like in the case of a dispensary that sell cannabis. And we have to make the tech easy and accessible and affordable to them so that they can use our tool without any additional burden or any additional cost. And I think the way we do that is in a few ways. One, it's just like an overall service and support right, like we're directly there for our customers. We pick up the phone, you know, seven days a week, 365 days a year. They can always talk to somebody if they need something.
07:05
But we also then price it in a way that they're only paying us if they see results right, and so we don't ask for upfront costs, we don't ask for monthly fees. If nobody ever uses Spender, they don't pay anything for it and we have the burden of showing them that they can make more money from Spender than what they would pay back to us. And if we don't prove that, we don't make them pay Right, and so they have a performance guarantee and I think it's just really unique that you know most payment companies charge like a flat rate. You know it's typically 2.9% plus 25 cents and you're paying that you know, regardless of if it's adding value to your business or not. Yeah, and we just don't. We just don't believe in that Right Like we have to show, show the success.
07:42 - Diana (Host)
I love that. The pure fuckery that is um stripe and paypal and all the like. What they put you through if they know that you have anything to do with cannabis, even cbd, um, that's a whole other episode, but you know it's not good, it's not good no, and the affordability I mean that like that in itself is a huge problem, right?
08:07 - Lucas (Guest)
just how? How cannabis company like legal cannabis companies, or even cannabis adjacent, like yourself, like you don't touch the plant, you don't sell cannabis and but yet for some reason they still put you in that same bucket as those that do. But I think if you even look beyond cannabis, diana, like the like, the same affordability concerns are also facing non cannabis small businesses, like think of your local boutique shop. You know, in your, in your town, um, they're getting charged a fortune. You know, if you're selling a cup of coffee that is, on average, three to $5, but you're being charged a flat 25 cents per transaction plus 2.9% of the $5, that percentage is much more than two and a half percent.
08:43
You know it can be as much as four or five, six, 7% of your revenue is going just to payment processing, and so I think I think a big issue facing a lot of small businesses is the affordability. They all want to accept cards because they don't want to deal with cash and consumers like cards. But they have to find a way to do it. You know, affordably, right. And you, I don't know if you've seen in your town, like where I live in Cincinnati, like there are some shops that are still cash only because it's that much to them, they're willing to put up with the headache because of how high the costs have gone.
09:11 - Diana (Host)
Yeah, for payment processing wow, it's been a long time since I've been to cincinnati, so I can't I tested that, but yeah, I, I do see that here though there are a lot of, like, smaller businesses in town, so that is really rough and people wonder why these smaller places charge so much, right?
09:31
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11:03 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, it's a great question, you know, and again, I think we do it in a lot of different ways and we currently have the you know the fortune of working across, you know, just now, just two time zones. You know, eastern time, we're in Ohio, michigan and then West Coast, and we're in New York, east Coast, but West Coast, california and Arizona. And that was a big learning experience when we took on, like West Coast companies that you know, those people could be calling us to our customer support line at, you know, 6pm their time, which is 9pm our time, and we now have to have people available, be able to pick up that phone call. And so I think it put you know, just more, you know, like just more thought from Spender to say, well, how can we service these clients in the same way we'd service the Ohio client? We need to give those California clients the exact same experience, right?
11:50
Because, again, that that quality of support really matters to us when it comes to like you know, whether it's, like you know, economical backgrounds or things like that, you know we try to make Spender, you know, really accessible to everybody, just with the way we structure it, again, like consumers don't pay anything, so like we'd never charge a fee to the consumer. The customer's never gonna have to pay to use Spender. We give them rewards, we give them money, we give them cash back, we give them things, you know, just for signing up so that they can experience Spender for the first time before they have to decide, you know, whether or not to stick with us. And so, again, we want to give everybody a shot to use it and we can support.
12:24 - Diana (Host)
You know, essentially, up to of banks. So as long as you have a bank account, you can use spender, um, and that's, I think, how we really take care of the consumers making sure that they can, that they can, access it. So to that point, do you have any issues when people with their banks that are connected? Because, just like we just talked about, uh, banks also will shut you down certain banks if you have even a slight connection or you're doing anything cannabis related. Do you have any issues with that?
12:54 - Lucas (Guest)
we, we have not had issues with that, and I think it's for a couple reasons. So, like, you know the, the, the people receiving the funds right. So, in the case of like, of a dispensary, you know who's using spender to accept payments. Um, we're making sure that they have a bank account that knows their cannabis business and supports them, right. So, like, our dispensaries aren't banking with chase or pnc, they're banking with local credit unions, local state banks, you know that have gotten approval from their state regulators to service the, the cannabis industry, and all of this is compliant under what was called the coal memo, which is put out by obama's administration, and so it is very legitimate, very compliant. And so that's why we're safe. Like, on the receiver side right, because we know the banks and their banks know that they're cannabis businesses. On the consumer side, the way that it's looked at is you know these consumers are putting money into Spender.
13:41
Spender can be used at various places, including dispensary, but also including non-dispensary. So Spender also works with non-cannabis businesses, and so that's how it works. We use plaid for bank linking and authentication, and so, as long as your bank supported by plaid, you can link your bank to spender and then we also can allow linkage through what's called like a manual authentication, where you put in your account routing number and so we can support essentially up to 100% of banks. We haven't had issues. There's been where a bank, um, essentially was like, hey, we don't want to support cannabis related transactions. Um, but that's a very, very small portion of the of the overall population, so we haven't seen issues so far. We don't expect that's going to happen because, again, spenders more than just like a cannabis payment system. It can be used across industries.
14:34 - Diana (Host)
Okay, so that's good. So digital accessibility is crucial for users with disabilities. How is Spender integrating accessibility features on its platform to ensure that all users can access those services?
14:49 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that we're doing and will be doing. I think that there's both product enhancements and technical changes, but then there's also, let's say, non-technical efforts that I think we're making, and I think the biggest one is just accessibility to Spender. Right, so, again, you can pick up the phone really anytime, 365 days a year, and you're going to talk to somebody who lives in Cincinnati, ohio, who's like, sits in our office, you know, knows the product well, cares about you, wants to help you, is one to take the time right, like we don't, we don't discourage, you know, our customer support people from taking a long time on the phone. Like, take as much time as you need to help somebody out. And so I think that that really goes a long way and I think longer than people realize like just being able to talk somebody through how to link their bank, how to use Spender. If the font's too small, like we can, we can help, like, walk them through. Hey, click here, click there, you know, do these other steps. And so, just like that again, just like the, the direct accessibility to our team I think is probably the number one way that we really help make Spender accessible.
15:53
We also do a lot of like in-person events. You know Diana was telling you like we do show up at dispensaries. We have a table, people who know how to handle Spender are there. I go from time to time and directly talk to customers. So, like we've helped people who need help, like getting set up right, even to the extent of like they hand us their phone and we're helping them like in real time, you know, like put stuff onto the, onto the app, and so, um, and then I think beyond that, like technically, like you know, there's a lot of things that apple and android natively, you know, do, whether it's like you know text, uh, um, like text to speak, you know where you can turn on your accessibility feature and it will like call out what's on the screen.
16:30
You know different things like that. And then over time, we're even looking for like non-digital ways of using Spender and we have a lot of cool ideas of how, of what that could mean, you know, but basically a way that you could pay with Spender without needing your phone. And so if you're somebody that doesn't want to carry a smartphone maybe doesn't even have a smartphone, right, but you still want to pay with Spender, we can potentially create in a way for you to still do that. And that's early stages, but we're just trying to find ways to accommodate for 100% of people. You know, we know we may not get 100% of people, but we at least want to make the option to 100% of people if they can use Spender if they want to.
17:05 - Diana (Host)
That's amazing Because at the last dispensary event I did, I was shocked at how many people did not have smartphones on hand or at all.
17:14 - Lucas (Guest)
Totally, and we see it. I mean, people walk into the dispensary and they're like they just have their cash and I'm like, well, you can use Spinner. Like oh, wow, I'd love to use Spinner, but I don't have my phone, or it's okay, I gotta go. Learned is there's still a lot of people who don't carry their phones with them all the time, and so we just have to figure out how to accommodate for.
17:33 - Diana (Host)
Right and some people just don't understand them. For whatever reason you know, scanning QR codes can be difficult. Yeah, you know, it's all.
17:43 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, it's newer tech. Now you'd be surprised maybe you're not, diana but like our average age of app users around 40, which tells me we have a lot of. You know, we have an older population and a younger population, so spender does not necessarily just attract like a younger population, like we've heard people say. Well, hey, it must work the best when you have a bunch of 20 year olds who are used to apps. Yeah, like they're gonna, you know, maybe like sign up faster, but the the older population is, is is a very like loyal. They're really appreciative of what we're doing and we just need to be there to help them get signed up. So, again, this can really work across really any age population.
18:19 - Diana (Host)
And you said it works in non-cannabis situations, right?
18:23 - Lucas (Guest)
Yep, yeah, yeah. So it's not just, it's not just specific to cannabis. I mean, cannabis is the market we are focusing on because it's got the biggest problems and it's very near and dear to our hearts of our own experiences. But again, the same problems facing dispensary, I think are also being faced by local boutiques, by other retail shops, you know, in non-cannabis spaces too.
18:42 - Diana (Host)
And you have some really great bonus offers and reward programs. Well, that yeah we'll kind of touch on that.
18:49 - Lucas (Guest)
That's what's like super cool about spender is much more than just payments. You know payments yes, we do, but I think the you know real value and a real benefit is from really both parties, right, the business and the consumers and the offers and the rewards. And so we are providing like cash back offers to consumers for using spender. We're offering sign-up bonuses for using spender. We do like monthly giveaways where you know you can essentially like enter for free for the chance to win you know hundreds.
19:18
I think maybe one time we did like a thousand dollar winner that we gave and they can use a thousand dollars on anything they want. You know that that accepts spender, and so I think it's just creating like a much more rewarding experience where you know like you feel good to like go out of your way to buy cannabis and you feel good to go out of your way and like go shop locally at the stores that do take spender too, and I think that's like been really helpful for the businesses where, like we can be a layer that helps them grow without their involvement, right, and so, like we are pushing these offers out to their customers in a very targeted and personalized way. That's causing those people to come back and everybody wants free money, especially when it's free money, for you know that they could use on cannabis.
19:56 - Diana (Host)
So that's, you know, they get excited about that yeah, so do you have a system where people can get rewards in the dispensary as well, or is that like the next phase?
20:06 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, so the rewards that they're getting are from spender right but they're getting them for doing different actions.
20:11
So, like an action could be signing up and linking your bank to spender. It could be, you know, it could be participating at an event, it could be going and spending X number of dollars at any place. So it's not location specific, right. And so, like we have a chain of glass shops in Cincinnati called Planet Caravan and if we have an offer for spending $100 to get $5 back, you know, 5% cash back. If you go spend $100 at any place on spender, you're going to get that $5 and then that $5 can be used on anything anywhere.
20:41
And so it's not like dispensary specific rewards or loyalty, it's more spender loyalty and we're that layer on top of what they may already be doing. That just gives you more reason to go shop at that store, right? Because almost every dispensary is doing their own loyalty program already and we don't want to compete with that. We don't want to, you know, replace that. If they're seeing value, they should keep it Sure. Spender is that layer, so that if you have spender diana, you're going to go to a store that takes spender because you want to use your extra five in addition to the loyalty that you may already have at that dispensary right, because those loyalty at those two different are going to be very similar. What's not going to be similar is that spender experience I love that yeah and it's free.
21:18
Like we, we have a good time with it, like I, I, you know, maybe at one point I'll I'd love for you to talk to some of our dispensary owners because, like we'll do, like events where we'll bring in like a plinko board you know, if you've seen like the plinko game, you drop, like we have these, like gold coins that you drop into a board and it will like shoot out different reward amounts for you to earn and like people love it, like we've had the owners of the dispensary, like you know, all up in there just loving what we're doing. So it's just we've created a fun experience for people that I think has been very unique to what what's been seen in cannabis.
21:46 - Diana (Host)
Oh, very cool. I love that, I love, I love free money and I love games and it sounds good.
21:55
Especially when you buy other types of plant medicine, because that's where my mind is going, like you know, going into certain shops which are popping up all over the place. Now I'm seeing even like bars that are non alcoholic, that have, you know, all of the nootropics and plant medicine options, and so it's really cool to have this as an option in those scenarios. So are there any specific technologies or partnerships that you're excited about that could further democratize financial services?
22:32 - Lucas (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, I think, yes, like I think, and even beyond, just like technology and partnerships, like I think there's just a you know a lot of change that that is going on in the industry, right, Whether it's like reschedule, you know, to schedule three, maybe it's full fledged legalization, maybe it's safer banking. I think all of these are, you know, have the you know kind of the goal of democratizing financial services, just like bringing more access to people. You know, I think, I think you know cannabis or non cannabiscannabis like the bulk of financial services are really powered by, you know, like a couple of main players and you can think of, like all the big banks or you know, investment firms is having their hand into like a lot of what's happening financially. And I think it is like fintechs, like Spender, you know financial technology companies, startups, um, and there's more and more of them every day that are, I think, are trying to just like bring greater access to people.
23:25
And you know my big belief about spenders, like kind of giving the consumer the power to choose right, like it's you ultimately choose where to shop and what to buy and what to pay with, um, and I think, like the more that we can give that power back to you, the more that you know we can say hey, you have access to your money for free money for free. We're not going to charge you. You know, I still find it crazy. Sometimes you have to like pay money to get your own cash out of an ATM, you know. Or you have to like pay money to like like to give the bank your money.
23:49 - Diana (Host)
Yeah.
23:51 - Lucas (Guest)
Like I'm charged. I get charged $25 a month for my checking account, but I'm giving you money, like I'm right in the bank. It's like, well, bank, you're holding my money and you're making money on my money, why am I then paying you a fee? We've just gotten so used to that. And so I think, like, how do you, how do you? How do you again, like you know, show, you know, like, show that appreciation differently by giving you access to your money without making you pay for that access, because, ultimately, like you work for your money, you deserve access to it when you want it.
24:17
And so I think, like that that is stuff that just needs to keep being like focused on and innovated on. And you're seeing it right, like it is happening, you know, maybe not as large as people would want, but I think it is happening, and there's a lot of startup companies out there that are trying to do that. And so I think, in cannabis and more specifically to like me and spender, you know, we're starting to form partnerships with like people who have networks of banks and have networks of vendors that support cannabis. You know, great company you can check out as a company called green check verified that does a lot of like compliance software for cannabis and for cannabis banks, and you know they're the layer that gives banks comfort to support cannabis right, because they're going to make sure that that dispenser, that business, that they're compliant with the state laws and regulations. And so you need more again like more technology and more people like willing to stand in the middle and do the hard work, because it is hard right Like there's a lot of nuances for doing cannabis banking and cannabis payments compliantly and there's a lot of regulations for doing it not in cannabis right, like banking and payments generally, is very hard and highly regulated.
25:18
So you need these types of players that I think are willing to step in and and help automate and help streamline and just help everybody get involved, cause I think the more of that you have like, the more, the more access people will have. So that's my belief. Well, you know, we'll see. We'll see how it goes, but I'm feeling optimistic. I really am Good, I love that.
25:40 - Diana (Host)
So before we end, how can people support Spender?
25:43 - Lucas (Guest)
You can download the Spender app on iOS or Android just Spender S-P-E-N-D-R. You know, tell your local dispensary about Spender. Tell them you want to pay with Spender. Tell them to contact Spender. You know, again, like we really help both parties. You know, the consumer is going to appreciate using Spender. The business will appreciate using Spender. We just need to get more people to know that Spender exists. We're the newest kids to the party. We're barely two years old in the market. We're competing against people who've been in the market since 2016, 2017. And just because we may be the last ones here, I think we have a great product with great service and very high quality that people want to use and we just need to let more people know it exists. So tell your friends and, uh, give us feedback. You know like we want to make this better and so we're we're all ears.
26:36 - Diana (Host)
Good.
26:37 - Lucas (Guest)
I love that Well.
26:38 - Diana (Host)
thank you for spending time with me today and um come back anytime.
26:43 - Lucas (Guest)
Thanks, diana, I appreciate you.
26:46 - Diana (Host)
Thanks so much. This podcast has been a product of your Highness Media. Each episode is written, produced and edited by your Highness Media. Thank you for listening.